MADE EP.7 | Holly Thallon-Steenson on Donating £1 Million to Charity

Kiron: Hi guys, welcome to another episode. I'm super excited. We are taking a slightly different route into a new industry, which is great, and we're hoping to do more of this. But for today, I'm joined by Holly Thallon-Steenson, who is managing director of Viridian Nutrition. So thank you for joining us, Holly.

Holly: Thank you very much for having me.

Kiron: I think the best place to start is to tell us a little bit about what Viridian does, and a little bit about the company, and then we can start to delve into how you got to where you are and some of the challenges and some of the aims for the future. So yeah, tell us about Viridian.

Holly: So we are a vitamin and supplement company based out of Daventry here in the UK, so probably only about forty minutes drive from here. So we were founded in 1999 by my mum, who just absolutely loved the supplement industry, but primarily really loved independent health food stores. So wanted to build up a vitamin company that could support them, as well as really helping people to better health and better happiness. So we now have a range of around three hundred and twenty odd different products, which has grown from our original twenty-four products, which we launched with on day one. And it's just really grown over the last twenty-seven years, and I stepped into the business officially sort of about five or six years ago, and then became managing director about two and a half years ago now.

Kiron: Wow. So there's a lot to extrapolate from that. But to start with, how did your mum get into it? What was she doing before Viridian?

Holly: So she left home at sixteen, and then ended up working in a health food store when she was around eighteen years old, and absolutely loved it. And then when she went away, she wanted to become a journalist, and so she had these big ideas of being on The Telegraph and being a journalist from there. And she actually ended up on the Natural Food Trader magazine, which kind of married her love for health food stores and for journalism. So she got to travel around the world, go visit health food stores, not just in the UK and in Ireland, but also across America, and got to interview these incredible people. And one of these people was a guy who owned a large American supplement company, and it was still family-owned, family-run by his family, which was wonderful, and she ended up working for them as their marketing director here in the UK, a part of their UK division. She then built into their managing director, and then that company sold to a very large pharmaceutical company. So she decided, "This isn't the right fit for me anymore." And so she thought, "Well, what am I gonna do next?" And she knew that she wanted to do something that was looking after people and helping people. So she had a few ideas and then realized, "Okay, supplements is kind of what I wanna do, and it really helps support people." Then there was a big journey of what on earth does a supplement company look like that fits with her values.

Kiron: I was gonna say, how do you start that kind of thing up? I know especially nowadays, but like all, all the testing and all the legislation that you, especially with supplements, I expect it's even higher than physical products that the likes of myself are involved in.

Holly: Yeah, it is, it is very intense. There's a lot of rigorous sort of testing that we do, a lot of regulations that we do, a lot of accreditations. We get audited, you know, all of those sort of different levels. But how my mum started is she utilized her journalistic background. She asked questions, and when she asked 50 questions, she asked 50 more. And so I remember she was visiting a potential manufacturing site that we still work with today, no spoilers. But she was visiting them and said, "I want to know everything."

Kiron: Okay.

Holly: And the guy that she was talking to went, "Really? You wanna know everything that goes on in the industry?" She said, "Yes." Then she also asked lots more questions and found out more about excipients and binders and fillers. That's things like the colorings, the glues that hold tablets together, all of these different things that because she didn't have that technical knowledge before, she was in the marketing department, she found out so much more, and she literally, I remember, she always says to me that she laid in bed that night and thought, "Oh my God, is this genuinely what I want to do?" "Knowing now what I didn't know before." And she thought, "I do wanna continue doing this, but I'm gonna do it in a way that feels right to me." And so we then partnered with that manufacturing site and produced things without the binders, the fillers, and the excipients. So it was quite a revolutionary thing for my mum back in, God, 1999 when she did it.

Kiron: Blimey. I mean, that journey to try and change what had already been the industry way or standard with the binders and the fillers, et cetera, I mean, again, that must have been quite a difficult journey to one, produce a product that you can take these elements out of or replace them, and second of all, to then get the market on board with why you've done it and educate them.

Holly: I think that side is actually slightly easier for us. At the end of the day, it's what our customers wanted. Our customers wanted clean. They wanted transparency. They wanted the opportunity to be able to say no, rather than having things within their supplements that maybe they weren't aware of was there. You can read certain ingredients so that, you know, carrageenan, is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Do I want that in my supplement? Is that something that's gonna help me? And so helping people understand maybe what those ingredients mean is a part that we love doing about our job, that education side. But yeah, finding the right and partnering with the right manufacturing sites that could help us actually produce those products took a little bit of time. So like I say, we launched with 24 products 'cause that's what we felt confident in, that we could produce to these standards, and now we've got a range of 330, and the industry is an incredible place to be. And the manufacturing sites that, like I say, we're still working with today are absolutely wonderful at helping us drive that forward, and give that transparency and that options for the end users and the customers.

Kiron: What's the general consensus when you approach manufacturing sites? I know you've got your, your list of approved partners And you're-- I'm sure you're always looking to develop the next thing and always constantly improve. Do you get much pushback from any of either the sites you're dealing with or new sites when you're trying to change the way something's been done for a long time?

Holly: I think they're usually on board with us and wanna strive to do more. The challenge is we have quite a rigorous process. We have a hundred and thirty point promise. So every single new product that we bring out has gone through this hundred and thirty point check, which is very extensive. And that's everything from looking at certification of organic if it's possible, through to being able to audit our manufacturing sites and them hitting that certain criteria, to not being tested on animals, which is still a thing within the industry. So if a product does not hit that hundred and thirty points, it's our promise to our customers that we will not launch with that.

Kiron: Right.

Holly: Because we will never go back on those values. So our manufacturing sites know us well to know what these hundred and thirty points are, and to make sure that they're able to support us with that. But if something new came out, we would probably add a hundred and thirty-one points if it's something that we were passionate about and we believed, you know, was a right thing to do, not just for us as a business, but for our customers and our customers' customers.

Kiron: So the animal testing, obviously a big, big topic, and I think everyone can agree, testing on an animal live or putting an animal's life at risk is a bad thing. And then in the same argument, there's the, you have to go through certain testing to be able to prove it for human consumption. What's the balance in your mind between obviously removing the animal testing but ensuring it's fully safe for human consumption? How does that work?

Holly: There's lots of other ways to be able to rigorously test something for human consumption, but a lot of the ingredients that we work with are herbals, botanicals, minerals. These all have been utilized for thousands of years. Maybe not every single one, but the majority of them have been in use for such a long period of time. There is evidence there. You can look at peer-reviewed human trials. You don't have to test it out on an animal to be able to do that. So my ethics from that point says I don't wanna test on animals anyway. But also thinking from the effectiveness side, just because it works on a poor mouse or a bunny rabbit that doesn't mean it's actually gonna be optimal for human nutrition. So we have a real food first approach. If you can get the nutrition from the food, then fantastic. But we know what it's like. We all live such busy, hectic lifestyles. You might not be able to eat that sort of kilogram of spinach or whatever it is that you might be after to get the nutrition that you're hoping for. So that's where supplements can come in. But that, again, is looking at the peer-reviewed human studies of what vitamin D dosage is gonna be right for me, not just general.

Kiron: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it sounds obvious now you've said it, but it's like, why are we doing the animal testing if this is something that we're getting in our fruit and vegetables and we've been eating for hundreds of thousands of years? So that makes complete sense. So going back to the family business element, I know we've spoken before, and it wasn't on your plan right from a young age to be in the role that you are, and at some point there was a tipping point when that decision came to light. Can you talk us through a little bit about that part of your journey?

Holly: Yeah, I mean, it was quite a shock to the system really. So I'd met up with a friend that I hadn't seen since, oh God, I was probably seven or eight years old. We met up during COVID and did a socially distanced walk, as many people did, around our country park in Daventry, which was just really lovely to get outdoors and see somebody I hadn't seen in such a long time. And we basically had such a big catch up on life, love, everything in between, what's going on, and what we're doing for work. And at the time I was working in the events industry, and I absolutely loved events, and I loved my job, and I loved the team that I was working with. But I felt like something was missing, and I felt like there was some other passion that I wanted to be able to sort of bring in and be able to make a difference. And so I was kind of explaining this to my friend, and he was grilling me on my life and was really questioning kind of what did I think I was gonna do next. And I was like, "I didn't realize this was an interview." But the one question he did ask me, he said, "Well, what about Viridian?" And I said, "Well, what about Viridian? It's my mum's baby. It's my mum's favorite child."

Kiron: So how old was the business at this point?

Holly: Ooh, goodness. 2020 We started in '99, so we were-

Kiron: So it's like 21 years old ...

Holly: about 21. Thank you. You're better at maths than me there look.

Kiron: No. Okay. Yeah. So it was a fully fledged big operation. It's not like it was early days.

Holly: And my mom was still the head of it and absolutely loving it, and any time you asked her, there was no question that she was gonna keep going until she dropped, you know? Yeah. She's absolutely so passionate about what we do in our industry. So I said, "You know, I don't wanna be..." You know, it's obviously King Charles now, but I didn't wanna be Prince Charles in waiting.

Kiron: Mm.

Holly: You know, I wanted to be somewhere that I could make a difference, and I thought if I am constantly number two and, you know, I feel like what's that dynamic gonna look like? But he asked me and he said, "In all seriousness, your mom's just turned 60. You know, she's not gonna keep going in Viridian forever. What are the options here?" And the options that a lot of people in our industry go for is you can sell, you can bring in an external managing director, you know, or I could step in or step up. And, the sensation was it hit me like a ton of bricks.

Kiron: Mm.

Holly: And it genuinely was. You know, I, I'd always joked that Viridian was my little sister and the favorite child. But Viridian was my little sister. She's four years younger than me. And I thought, if anybody's gonna screw this up, it's gonna be me. I need to be the one that looks after her. I couldn't imagine anybody else doing that, and it was such a, literally a feeling walking around this country park with my friend. And then I thought, "Oh God, the next step is I need to go home and talk to my mom."

Kiron: So you'd never spoken to your mom about joining the family business in all those 21 years?

Holly: No. The only time we went out to an industry event, 'cause I was obviously young and my mom was a single parent, so having to go out to certain health food stores at the weekend was kind of just my life. And they'd always say, "Oh, when are you gonna join the family business when you grow up?" And I said, "Oh, uh, uh, uh." My mom said, "No, she's gonna go off and do what she wants to do," whether that, you know, at the time it was like an engineer, an astronaut, an architect, which I never did. All of these different things. It was just whatever she wants to do, she will go and do.

Kiron: Do you think that was 'cause she didn't wanna almost force you into that? 'Cause there's that bit of a combination, isn't it? It's like you don't want the pressure from your parents to be like, "Oh, you will take the family business on," and that not be your passion. So her saying, well, she'll do what she wants to do, do you think part of her, a big part of her maybe, was hoping that you would maybe come and say, "I'd love to do this"?

Holly: I have to admit, now we've spoken, now I'm in, she said that was a hope.

Kiron: Yeah.

Holly: But she was like, "I never wanted you to feel forced down that route, and I want it to be something you are as passionate about as I am." And so when she could see that, I mean, when we were talking about the opportunity potentially at Viridian, she was like, "Okay, maybe it's time." But it was a beautiful bit of simpatico really or a synergy, where that week that I went to go speak to her in, in her home office, 'cause it was COVID and I was working in my home office, which was bedrooms basically- I went into her and said, "I would love the opportunity to talk about joining Viridian, and what would that look like? Would that even be something you're on board with? Do you think I'm the right fit?" And that sort of week she was doing the business growth program with Cranfield University, and because she'd just turned 60 they were asking her about her legacy and where she saw her next steps being. She said, "I've only just turned 60, calm down." But she came home and I had that conversation with her and she said, "This is perfect timing."

Kiron: Yeah, yeah. Something was meant to be.

Holly: She was hoping that something like that would happen. Yeah.

Kiron: Wow. And, and I assume her response was super positive when you brought it up.

Holly: Yeah. Oh, incredibly. Yeah. But we took it incredibly seriously and incredibly slow to make sure that it was the right fit for both of us. We weren't just doing anything knee-jerk reactions. That I was actually gonna be able to join it, enjoy it, and actually contribute to it rather than just sort of, yeah, let's test it out.

Kiron: Yeah, yeah.

Holly: We took it all very, very seriously, which I'm so glad that we did.

Kiron: Yeah, definitely. It's the right way. I mean, how… Although it'd very much been your whole life and you, you said, you know, Viridian was your baby sister, so you, you knew it implicitly well, but there is always a difference between- knowing it and being Viridian as well. How long a period was it before you were then in the role of managing director on that conversation?

Holly: From that conversation to actually managing director, three years.

Kiron: Okay.

Holly: About three years. We did have a five-year plan laid out in place. But five years suddenly quickly turned into four, which turned into three, which I think is always the way once you get into the business. But, yeah, from that conversation to actually just joining the business was probably about three, four months. We wanted to make sure we'd really thought that through. And then, I was kind of in a management support role for about two years before I kind of then became MD.

Kiron: And how much involvement does your mom have now?

Holly: Very little. So she's on our advisory board, so she is still the chair of our business. And obviously I go home and speak to her quite regularly about different things 'cause she's a wonderful almost consultant and a massive asset to the business. So I'd be a fool not to be able to utilize that. But actually day-to-day wise, she doesn't get involved at all, which is a shock to most people at Viridian and to our industry, I think, that she has now taken that step away from Viridian. Still very much caring about it and caring for our industry, but is also now doing something new.

Kiron: Yeah. I mean, it's fair to say it's not like she's just retiring and doing nothing. She's probably busier than ever now with some of her latest projects. Are you able to share a little bit about what sort of things your mum's up to now?

Holly: Yeah. Goodness. Definitely not retired. We do not use that word at all. So she started up a publishing company with my husband. She also supports with our local health food store, which we own as well, and then has opened up a bookshop too, which is all very exciting.

Kiron: Yeah.

Holly: So she's currently... If anybody is in the Daventry area and walks into Suddenly on Chief Street, they'll see her there most days.

Kiron: Yeah. I mean, it's fair to say both your mum, yourself, and everyone involved has really kind of reinvigorated Daventry. And everyone in the local area always knows your bookstore and you guys. Is that something that was part of the plan initially, or is that something that kind of naturally unfolded as the roles, you know, you in MD and your mum as the chair, it allowed her to kind of follow this path on a bit of a passion project, or was that something that was in the plan three years ago?

Holly: I think it has always been something that my mum has wanted to do. She's got a real, you know, from her journalism background, she's always had a real big love of books, and so being able to do something like that in our community, you know, is incredible to be able to give back as well. We all love books, and we thought if we love books this much, surely more people will. And, we employ about 70 to 80, actually closer to 80 people now across Daventry. So to be able to bring that into our community has been such a lovely thing to do, and the fact that we get to go home and read tons of books and get to see all of these beautiful things coming out from authors, the more the better.

Kiron: We're gonna play a little bit of a blind ranking segment now, Holly. So, I'll give you five options. Place them where you think, one to five. There's no going back once you've locked in an option.

Holly: Oh, that's tough.

Kiron: Okay. And if you can share a bit of a reason why you've put them there. One to five, vitamin D.

Holly: Ooh, vitamin D. Oh, it's gotta be in there at-- I'm gonna say number two cause I don't wanna lock in too high at the very start.

Kiron: Big fan of vitamin D.

Holly: Big fan of vitamin D. Incredibly needed for a lot of people across the UK, especially now we're coming into those winter months. You know, we don't get outside enough. We don't see enough sunshine and, you know, we really sometimes need that support.

Kiron: Magnesium

Holly: Magnesium as a whole?

Kiron: Yeah

Holly: Oh, I'm gonna be bold and lock in at number one.

Kiron: Whoa.

Holly: I am.

Kiron: Okay.

Holly: It's absolutely incredible. There's so many different forms of magnesium, so it supports many different things and many different functions across the body, but it's just such a wonderful mineral. I think it just really helps so many people, and we're seeing a lot more conversations around magnesium bisglycinate coming out, which I just think is really great to be able to see that education side coming for it, 'cause it-- I think it's such a wonderful mineral that it wasn't spoken about a lot before.

Kiron: Collagen

Holly: Collagen, so I've got three, four, and five left. Four.

Kiron: Okay.

Holly: Think it's very good, but I think looking at what forms you get and looking at what the actual dosage is, is really important for collagen.

Kiron: Ashwagandha

Holly: Three, ashwagandha's fantastic.

Kiron: Okay.

Holly: Yeah.

Kiron: And then finally, in five then, omega-3.

Holly: Oh, well, I feel bad that it's in number five now. But yeah, absolutely incredible, omega-3. You know, you need your essential fatty acids, and really us in the UK and any Westernized diet, we're not seeing a lot of that, and that ratio of between omega-3s to omega-6 is quite out of balance. So I was speaking with Phil, who's our nutritional educator at Viridian, and we've been talking a lot about that even more so in that sort of Westernized diets, we see a lot of omega-6s, which I don't know if you know really where that comes from.

Kiron: No, what's the main differences between omega-3 and omega-6?

Holly: So omega-3s you mainly find within certain seed oils, but also primarily fish, which a lot of people hear of, and it's incredibly important for your brain function, a lot of other things across the body. But omega-6 we see a lot within sort of processed foods. They're not saying omega-6 is bad at all, but it's just we see a lot more of it in our diet. So that ratio, which we're kind of looking closer to sort of like a four to one sort of ratio, we're seeing is kind of like a 20 to one ratio in most people's diets. So if we can bring that back into comparison, it helps with things like inflammation and again, brain function. But, it's just that a lot of people hear about omega-3 a lot, and you don't hear so much about the omega-6s.

Kiron: What do you think's changed in, I suppose, human diets and habits that do... So let's go back 150, 200 years ago. Do you think that generally we would have been a deficit in the nutrients that we need? Or do you think that our diet has taken a different path with slightly more processed foods and not including certain foods within our diet that it means we are deficient in some of these nutrients, hence the need for supplements?

Holly: I think it's more challenging to get what you need nutrient-wise from your diet now. And whether that just be general lifestyle, you know, you're able to just go and pick up something quick and easy, and that potentially the nutrients aren't there like they maybe would be in a well-balanced meal that you've cooked at home that's quite nutrient-dense. Yes, that makes it more challenging for you to be able to get the right nutrients at the right optimal levels. And also, the soil is becoming more and more depleted in the actual nutrients themselves. So even, you know, a carrot to a carrot is probably the nutrients levels aren't gonna be the same that they were all those years ago, where actually the soil was just a little bit more dense in that.

Holly: So we are finding from the research that we see and what we're looking out there for, that potentially there's more of a challenge there. So supplements, that's where it's able to help, especially if you've got that sort of fast-paced lifestyle that you might be struggling to... We all, with the best will in the world, and we all know what we should be eating, what we should be doing, but it's very hard to actually implement that in the day-to-day life, even if you've got your dogs or your kids or your family or just, you know, general work. It's tough to be able to fit all of that in. So unless you're able to prioritize well-balanced, cooked food every single day, you might be struggling with nutrition there a little bit.

Kiron: Do you think that the industry struggles a little bit with credibility? And what I mean by that is, you see it often where certain supplements tend to be trending in a way, and it was like the hot topic, and I remember like a few years ago, and I know it's still popular now, but collagen's a great example. Collagen was just in everything. Collagen coffee, collagen this, collagen that. And then you've got things like high protein. You go into any supermarket and everything's just got protein on it, and everyone's talking about protein. When you as Viridian are marketing, developing these products, I know you're not doing that because of what's trending.

Kiron: You're doing it because of what's best for your user,and your customers. How do you find trying to gain that credibility to say, "We're doing this for a genuine reason, not because it's the latest hot topic of marketing"?

Holly: I think for us it's always sticking true to our core. We genuinely wanna help people to better health and better happiness, and for us, that's not selling three products to every single person. It's about getting the right product to the right person for the right reason. Not every magnesium is built the same, so it's actually looking at that label and what is gonna genuinely support that specific person to better health. So it's not a general term. You can see a lot of things online that might look like the right fit for you, but it's reading that label and understanding that, and if you can, having a one-on-one consultation with a nutritionist is a fantastic thing to be able to do. You know, going into your local independent health store and having that conversation and just getting a little bit more of that knowledge. Knowledge never hurt anybody ever. Oh, maybe that's not true. There we go. Maybe, maybe we'll scrap that bit. But having more knowledge so you can make an informed choice.

Kiron: Yeah. No, that makes sense. And then going back a little bit to kind of the, the family ethos, and I know when you're talking about potentially the options that were available to your mum, Cheryl in her exit, it... the business may have gone down a slightly different route depending on where it ended up. But having you kept those kind of the ethics and the morals of you guys as a family, to the core, and you're very people-centric, and you wanna make a difference, you wanna help, and that, you know is very obvious as soon as you sit down with you guys for five minutes of conversation. Another big thing that's close to your guys' heart is charity. And it's amazing the recent milestone you've had, and if you don't mind me sharing it with everybody, you've reached a milestone of a million pounds in charitable donations, which is an incredible feat. So congratulations for that. Is that something that had been right from day one or something? Obviously, I'm sure as the business has grown, you've been able to donate more and contribute more, but has that been right from day one in '99 that something that your mum was passionate about?

Holly: Incredibly so. It's the same with the not testing on animals. Those are some of the things that we've... are fundamental pillars of Viridian, and being able to offer this to our health food stores. So what we do as a bit of a, the way that we run the charity donation program, is that our health food stores can vote for national and local charities that mean something to them, and every single vote matters. Every single vote gets a donation. And it's just a wonderful way for us to be able to actually engage in those local communities and small charities that might not get government funding and backing to be able to actually help support them for all of the wonderful work that they do. And every year that we do it, we- Oh, we get absolutely wonderful emails coming from both the charities and the health food stores, and their reasons why that this charity is so important and needs that support, and I can't imagine not, not doing it. It's an incredible thing to be able to do.

Kiron: Definitely. So after hitting the million-pound milestone to charity, what's next?

Holly: £2 million to charity, right? And I think we'll get it there, we'll get there quicker with that as well. And that's only possible for us thanks to the wonderful support from all of our customers and everybody else that actually takes Viridian, that allows us to be able to contribute more.

Kiron: Wow. Well, that's an amazing achievement, and I look forward to hearing you reach the £2 million mark, which I'm sure you'll do in no time. So we're gonna go into our segment.

Holly: Ooh.

Kiron: Made or Broken. We'll quick-fire straight into it. Back yourself or seek reassurance?

Holly: Back yourself.

Kiron: Specialize or stay broad?

Holly: Specialize.

Kiron: Be liked or be respected?

Holly: Be respected.

Kiron: Speak up or stay quiet?

Holly: Speak up.

Kiron: Innovation or consistency?

Holly: Innovation

Kiron: Routine or variety?

Holly: Or variety

Kiron: Amazing. Thank you ever so much for joining us today, Holly. You've been listening to Made, the podcast that speaks to those that have made it in industries that makes things. If you or anybody else knows of anyone that would be a great guest, please drop us a message, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your story, and look forward to bringing you the next episode. Thank you.