MADE EP.2 | Bal Phillips on Building a team to Complete an MBO

Kiron: Welcome to another episode of Made, the podcast that explores the stories of those that have made it in the industry that makes things. Today, the episode's a little bit different. I'm super excited. Usually I get to talk to a guest that I don't know particularly well. Today, it's the opposite end of the spectrum. Somebody I know incredibly well, has known me for my whole life. Bal Phillips, MD of Great Central Plastics, and also my mum, AKA Mumsy. Before we start, I must stress, I do have a brother, who is part of the family business, but he is just unable to make it today. So we are a family of three over at Great Central Plastics.

So Mum, first time in the podcast studio. Excited to have a chat with you about your story and everything that's happened with Great Central Plastics. Thanks for joining us.

Bal: Thank you.

Kiron: So I think let's, like all the episodes, let's take it back to the start. Many people probably are wondering how an Indian lady in the middle of the country is now MD of Great Central Plastics, how that started, how that came about.

So let's start with the business side of it first. Obviously, I know the company started in 1998. Talk us through how that happened and some of the conversations and decisions that you were deliberating at the time.

Bal: So, gosh, that was a long time ago, 1998. So basically, just going back to that time, Tony, your father, was the main driver of it at that point. There was three of us and our other business partner who was a toolmaker by trade. So the business started because of their background mostly. They were both in the industry. I was completely new. You were only two and a half, I think then. And your brother was nine months old.

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: So it was a big step, but as a family, we talked it all through, and it sort of started with just a unit that we rented. They'd got a few clients. The skill set between everybody was very different. I came from more of a sales background, so I'd go in and help out. So the business just started small.

Bal: And everyone was very focused, and it was a huge step. It was, especially when you've got a young family and there's a lot of risks, of course

Kiron: Well, I was gonna, I was gonna touch on that cause I mean, now even just starting a business is scary.

Bal: Yeah, yeah.

Kiron: But when you're, a young mom, essentially, you've got two children under the age of three, and your husband at the time says, "Oh yeah, let's start a company," I mean, that must've been pretty terrifying to, to think, "Pff, what happens if this doesn't work?". And there's a lot on the line.

Bal: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely

Kiron: So what, Whether it was your confidence in, you know, Dad and your business partner into doing it, but there must've been some confidence that came from somewhere to, to say, "You know what? Let's do this."

Bal: Yes, there must've been actually, because thinking about it now, it's very different.

But back then, I guess I was young myself as well, in my 20s. I suppose you have this real... There's that excitement of it and just the possibilities of what that's gonna bring, and yeah, there must've been a huge amount of trust anyway in the three of us together. But equally, maybe it didn't seem such a huge risk. Looking back now, I'm surprised I wasn't, there was more emphasis on that, that there wasn't. But, but I don't remember it being a point thinking, "Oh my gosh, what happens if it doesn't work?" I mean, we did have those conversations, but I think, I think in that time, it was also a case of, "Okay, you know what? If it doesn't work, we'll still get jobs, we'll find work. We'll figure it out. It'll be fine."

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: So you do have that positiveness that goes with age, I guess.

Kiron: Yeah. Well, I suppose that is the beauty of being younger, is you're, you're fearless.

Bal: Yeah. Oh, absolutely

Kiron: You look at children, they'll just jump into a situation, not even think about it. And I suppose that goes hand in hand with trying to start a company, is that it was maybe you didn't think about all the risks

Bal: No thankfully.

Kiron: And that kind of was the reason that you went for it, which obviously it's worked out well in the end.

So like growing up, etcetera, obviously, unfortunately didn't really get to know my grandparents. But what was your experience like with them? I know obviously your dad, my grandfather, was, was very entrepreneurial-

Bal: Yes ...

Kiron: from the stories you've told me. I guess, was some of that maybe part of why you were excited about the idea of owning your own business?

Bal: Yeah, I think there probably was, without realising it at the time, because, Especially my dad was extremely entrepreneurial. He was young when he came to the UK from Kenya. He was, I believe, probably only 17, 18. And his first job was in the Mars factory.

Bal: So to go from that and then that ambition and hunger for the, what the possibilities are so endless that he embraced that.

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: And he started his own businesses. He had a driving school. We had... You know, he had other businesses that he was very successful at. So I suppose seeing that growing up, although I used to do most of the admin, booking his driving lessons and answering the phone. But equally, there's a work ethic firstly, and seeing the success... I suppose you don't really think about it in so much detail, but a lot of that must then, as you grow up, become part of your DNA.

Kiron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I can, I can say obviously from our point of view, seeing you guys having the business... it's the same thing. There's subconscious skills or like you said, work ethic or whatever it might be that you don't really realise that you're absorbing. But you are.

Bal: Yes, you are, yeah.

Kiron: And when you look back on it, you go, "Oh, it's probably because mom and dad did that." But I'm now adopting some of those traits or whatever it might be. So, obviously, yeah, grow up, you mentioned obviously, your dad came over from Kenya at a very young age. Your mum was from the Punjab.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: Also came over at a young age. Would she have been similar age?

Bal: She was probably... There was only a year between them, so she was a trained teacher actually in Punjab. She was probably only 18, 17, 18 again. Completely different.

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: Very creative, very clever in terms of academically, so there was a real contrast in that.

Bal: But, I suppose in the sense that she was with someone who was entrepreneurial, and she never stood in his way, but equally she was never really part of the businesses as such because that just wasn't her skill set, I suppose.

Bal: But in terms of as a maths teacher and creatively, very, very creative. Drawings, beautiful painter, all things like that. Whereas, so they were very, very different.

Kiron: Yeah. I mean, we'll touch on it 'cause obviously there's a lot to be said about having, you know, a husband and wife doing their own things, and obviously you did the opposite where you joined a business with my dad. Obviously, that has its own difficulties, and challenges.

So the company starts in 1998. It's at the time probably, what, like a hand... two, three mould machines to get things going.

Bal: Yes. We only had a few, in the unit, which both of the directors ran the machines during the night.

I think at one point your dad probably even slept there.

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: And they took it in turns. They were very, very good at running the machines and keeping things going. That was really hard in the beginning because you are relying on, you know, accounts that you're trying to grow, but equally the risks are there. They bought machines that were pre-owned.

Bal: That was the only way to do it, and putting in savings and just getting on with it.

Kiron: Well, I remember, I remember growing up and spending a lot of time in the offices, obviously-

Bal: Yeah ...

Kiron: 'cause you guys had to be there.

Bal: Do everything.

Kiron: And it was, "Go and, go and play in there. you'll be all right." But like you said, it's just you gotta do what you gotta do.

Bal: Yeah. Yeah ...

Kiron: and we-we'll get to it, but it's funny 'cause I remember obviously growing up, you were always very keen for Zan and I to stay away from the family business.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: Kind of said, "Don't..." Which is a good thing, "Don't be reliant on it."

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: "Don't think that you can just come in here and you've got a job waiting for you. You need to go and do your own thing, and get on with your own lives." Obviously, for reasons we'll explain, that changed. But from 1998, obviously the business grows. I know in 2001 moved into the current unit that we're in now.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: I guess just growth of the business that helped lead into that point, growing these accounts that you're talking about. Any particular accounts that stuck in your mind back in the early days that were pivotal in that growth?

Bal: I think that we had, might be a bit controversial, however, one of our first orders was Jesus Army.

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: And, we used to do the deliveries. Do you remember we used to-

Kiron: I do remember, I do remember that

Bal: go and deliver them.

Kiron: We've gotta go and do a delivery.

Bal: And that really was a fantastic order for us.

Kiron: These were just the little red crosses, right?

Bal: ... Crosses, yeah. Yeah. And, we did a lot for, other big accounts were McDonald's

Kiron: Yeah, I was gonna say the McDonald's Happy Meals.

Bal: Yeah, huge Happy Meal orders

Kiron: Back when things were a lot simpler.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: Toys were a lot simpler.

Bal: Yes. Them having cookie cutters, other game type products, again, huge. You know, they were fundamental accounts for us.

Kiron: So the kind of promotional type sector was what was driving this growth?

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: So again, the business starts to grow. I know naturally it started to diversify a little bit, I suppose, a combination of word of mouth.

Bal: Yes ...

Kiron: Things like the automotive became a product line. I guess that was through connections and relationships that you were building.

Bal: Yeah. I think that was. A lot of it was word of mouth. We never, in all of the years, we never had a sales team on the road. It was word of mouth and connections, you know, your network. It's surprising how much that actually builds up as time goes on. In fact, very quickly

Kiron: reputation is important, isn't it?

Bal: Oh, yeah, and reputation is vital.

Kiron: So business is growing steadily. Family's growing. Obviously Zan and I are getting older, going through school. I had a great childhood, which obviously some of the reasons that I suppose led you to want to have your own business started to come to fruition, where, you know, we were having the benefits of that lifestyle it can offer. Obviously, there are the challenges, the late nights. I remember, and you know this, we're waiting for you to come and get us from school, but you're struggling to get out of the office, and it all of a sudden got quite dark waiting.

But, you know, that's part and parcel of having a business. We fast forward a little bit then to... Obviously, I know Zan and I have kind of gone through-- I went to uni. Zan went to do his apprenticeship. Still very much kind of on our own paths, as it were.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: Grew up working summer holidays, doing a bit of outwork and bits and bobs. Throughout our childhood, we were always involved in the business in some format. But we then come into kind of a pivotal point where a couple of things happened, really. COVID was one.

Kiron: And then obviously, you and Dad, after 20 years of running the business and obviously being married- things start to become difficult, and you decide to go your separate way from a marital point of view.

Kiron: Just tapping into that a little bit. I mean, at this point, you're doing still some sales, HR, predominantly. Dad's managing director, and then obviously you've got your technical director.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: Juggling being a wife, a HR director, obviously business owner as well, and then obviously a mum. It's quite difficult. I mean, I remember growing up and family conversations around the dinner would still be very much work, stuff that had gone on in the office and what was gonna happen. It was always, it was work constantly.

Bal: Yeah.

Kiron: I mean, what was your perspective on all of that?

Bal: I think looking back now, yes, it was. It was very, very much work-focused, and as you quite rightly point out, I took the route of HR more so because we needed that. The more the business was growing and we had more staff, that was something that was very fundamental in making sure one of us was on top of all of that.

However, it was a real challenge to wear those different hats, and when you've got your MD, who's also your husband, and having challenging conversations, especially when it is, you know, might be HR related or just in general, it causes a lot of conflict. There were times where there's a lot of upset. Of course there is, because it's just... You're working very closely together, and there are things that, conversations you have to have that aren't comfortable. So that put on a lot of pressure for sure, for everyone. At home, that was our time to have those conversations that would-- you couldn't necessarily have in the office, but then unfortunately, that also meant that poor you and Zan had to listen to it every day.

So, it's difficult, I would say, running a business. Not for everybody, but for me personally, I think, it was quite a challenge.

Kiron: I do think though, I mean, thankfully because of the, the route and the journey that we've now on, where obviously all three of us, me, Zan, and you are there now, there was a lot of learnings to take 'cause

Bal: Yeah, for sure. For sure ...

Kiron: we've not, we've not mastered it but we are very good, or certainly a lot better at the different roles that we sit in. And kind of not stepping on each other's toes. Where I think maybe that was part of obviously your experience as our mum growing up in that environment and us being obviously the children, seeing that if things cross over, it can be quite difficult. Where possible trying to, you know, like obviously Zan looks after the numbers, so I kind of let him do that. You're obviously MD and look after HR, so you do that. And I do a lot of the kind of commercial marketing-y stuff. So I do that.

Bal: Yeah.

Kiron: So you mentioned things start to change from like your relationship with Dad point of view.

COVID obviously took its effect because that was a real difficult time for the family in general and the business because you guys had already gone your separate ways at this point.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: So this is obviously 2020 basically. You've moved out of the family home.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: You've gone and got yourself your own house. You start building your own life. COVID happens. I think from memory, I might have got this wrong, I think conversations about the direction of the business had already started to unfold because obviously Dad, yourself, and your business partner, I think originally had decided you would all leave at the same time.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: And then conversations about you being, you're seven years younger than Dad. Retirement wasn't quite maybe in the picture as it could've been, because of your situation with the marriage. So what was going through your head at this point where you're kind of like, "Right, I'm going through a divorce, essentially. I've moved out and I've got my own mortgage. There's talks about selling the business." What are you thinking?

Bal: Yeah. That was... Yeah, so 2019, I moved out the family home, and obviously we're still working together, and that in itself had its moments because we've separated, living a separate life and completely moving away was… It was, it was difficult. But, the plan was always, as you said, the three of us, we always agreed we were gonna sell the business and leave together, exit together. But, you know, your goals are very different as a married couple or as a partnership is very different when you then go your separate ways.

Everything changes completely. So they were looking to sort of exit the business anyway. We had somebody that showed an interest in purchasing the business, and then, you know, when we all had conversations about that, bearing in mind this was never on the cards ever until that moment, and just shows that someone coming into the mix randomly changed everything.

Completely changed everything. Yes, COVID happened, and this all started during COVID. So I had a meeting with the potential buyer independently to just find out what was going on. And then the conversations came up. I then thought, "Okay, it's not the same. If we'd have left the business together, that's very different. Now I'm on my own. I've got a mortgage. I've got bills to pay. I'm gonna have to work somewhere." So then, you know-

Kiron: Well, 20 years being self-employed that's a big shift.

Bal: Yes, it is. Then also, you know, you do question, "Can I work for somebody else?" There's a lot of things then come into play.

So we had a conversation obviously with you boys as well, all of us having this conversation of it deciding is it a step that I could take, To replicate what this potential buyer was going to do. And I literally, as you'll know, I think I had about 48 hours to make the decision. Because this guy had gone on holiday, and we had to make a decision while he was away.

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: And so your dad said, "Right, sounds like it can work. It's entirely up to you." And you boys had also very kindly sat me down and said, "Mum, do whatever's best for you." You obviously were both very young. Still are. "You'll find other jobs." And you said, "Do what you're comfortable with."

I did have some sleepless nights, I must say. But I think the main thing was at that moment was thinking, "If I don't do this, I will never know." And okay, it is a risk. It was a big risk, but the core team... And being HR background was a real, real benefit because I knew my core team.

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: I knew with you boys there, and the core team I trust. And I knew your skill sets, so I thought if... We've gotta just take the chance. So that was the decision made.

Kiron: Well, yeah, that's kind of the point I was gonna get to next is, we hear different stories from our industry, and a lot of them are kind of maybe MDs who are, you know, particular skill sets. They might be tool making backgrounds.

Bal: Yeah.

Kiron: They might be, you know, mechanical engineers. With all this technical ability and experience. But the limitating factor of that can be that they can do so much of it. But then they're reluctant to give out maybe some of the tasks and workload to other people. Where I think what worked really, really well in our circumstances, because you weren't from a technical background and you were more people-focused, that for you, the way to do it was to put the right people around you.

Bal: Absolutely.

Kiron: And, and was to say, "Right, let me build a team of people that may be, you know, better than you in their areas."

And by putting a core team around you that you trust, it allowed everyone to flourish and be able to build what we've now built.

Bal: Yeah.

Kiron: So just to recap, so you then decide essentially the way to it was through a management buyout.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: With you being, obviously shareholder and director at the time, much, much easier for you to facilitate that with the other two directors. It was a six-year buyout.

Bal: Six year, yeah.

Kiron: And we are how many years through?

Bal: Five. It was five on Saturday.

Kiron: Five years in. So not long to go now.

Bal: No.

Kiron: The company has obviously come from strength to strength in that time, which in the whole scheme of things, five years is a very short amount of time.

Bal: Yes. Yes.

Kiron: We hear stories of people, you know, 20, 30 years doing various amazing things, but they're still decades, not- five years.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: The company, I can say has doubled, which is an incredible feat, working with the likes of Engel.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: Plenty of investment, plenty of upskilling, team's growing. The company is now operating pretty much 24 hours, four days a week. So you must be very proud.

Bal: Very.

Kiron: I probably-- If we sat down five years ago and said, "This is what the situation will be," you probably would've said, "Are you lads taking the mick?"

Bal: Yes. I have to say, yeah. There was times I would drive to work, especially in those first few months, I'd drive to work on the back country roads, and I would literally be beaming- ... on the way to work and thinking, "I can't believe this is happening." So, you know, there was that part of it, and then Once you're on that journey, as we all know, business can be a rollercoaster. Of course it can.

But if you've got a strong team and people you trust, that's so vital. You can ride those waves and I never for a second thought in five years we would be where we are today. We are incredibly lucky. And I think having a tight circle of people, you know, in the industry as well, and people you work with or partner up with, that you trust and can work well with, relationships are key.

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: And, you know, that's proven.

Kiron: Yeah. Well, I think also, you know, it's... I obviously get to be the one in front of the camera telling our story most of the time. But the reality also is, and there's so many people who work for various companies who have these ideas, and what we've done or the, the strategy we decided to adopt to push the business forward isn't rocket science. Like it made sense to say, "Look, let's build our digital marketing space and let's get people finding us through the means that people do these days," Google searching or whatever.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: But if from the top, and that's the position you sit in, that says, "No, no, no, no, I wanna do this. I want you to go and book trade shows. I want you to go and cold call all these companies, get out on the road," blah, blah, blah. It's no good having these wonderful ideas if they're not allowed to be trialed. And it wasn't plain sailing. Like things, anybody that knows about SEO and all the rest of it, it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. But the patience that you showed as the MD to say, "Look..." And that's maybe where the trust comes in. Maybe you probably thought, "If you believe in this so much, and this is something I'm trusting then let's let it unfold." And thankfully you did, because there are a lot of MDs who might have said, "This isn't working," and would've stopped it. And then we wouldn't be seeing the growth that we're necessarily seeing in all the areas that we are.

How do you find balancing being our mum, our boss, and, you know, in many conversations we kind of talk to each other on I suppose business partner level as well-

Bal: Yes ...

Kiron: 'cause we're a family. How do you find navigating all of that is?

Bal: I guess I had a good teacher, didn't I, back in the day. So I learnt a lot about what not to do. That was probably the biggest learning I had. It took me a long time, but that's played a big part in this journey.

But again, I think, as you mentioned before, having the right people in the right jobs and the skill sets has played a very big part because I trust what you all do. And yeah, like you said, SEO, yes, it does take a long time to build, and you're quite right. I think I had to also, I had to change certain things that I had got used to or learnt, you know, not great, but I had to think, "Okay, I'm gonna have to trust these decisions and run with it," for perhaps longer than I probably would've felt comfortable doing.

But I had to, because I knew bec- and again, a lot of these things were new for me. And I think it's giving everyone that space to explore the options 'cause as you know, there was lots of things we did try that weren't always working, and they are, it is frustrating. So it is just pulling that all together.

Kiron: Well that's it. I mean, like you said, nothing's plain sailing.

Bal: No.

Kiron: No, no journey of growth is just straight up. There's often ups and downs but, I mean, I think our growth within our sustainability portfolio was a good example of that. We must have trialed, I don't know, probably not quite hundreds, but it's probably not far off, different materials.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: Our portfolio certainly doesn't have hundreds of materials in it because not all of them worked. And there was a lot of time and money and effort put into stuff that just didn't go anywhere. But when we started finding, you know, the hidden gems that are out there and some real good materials that we've now crossed over into applications, you know, we're working with some incredible companies, incredible people, and it's, you know, I'm sure you feel the same, sometimes there's products that come out of our factory that you see in real life, out in the wild, and it's a proud moment to go-

Bal: Oh, yeah

Kiron: "we made that."

Bal: Yeah.

Kiron: But you know, it's not as quick as just finding material and running with it. There's so much effort goes on behind the scenes to bring them to life. It does take a lot of patience.

Bal: Yes, it does. It does.

Kiron: So you mentioned, basically a year left of your MBO which is obviously gonna be a huge, satisfying moment when you get to that point. Everybody that obviously knows you on a personal level, I think is gonna be so happy and proud of you for achieving that. Knowing you as well as I do, you're not just gonna be able to just sit back and do nothing all day and retire and just potter around. You're gonna be doing something. Have you thought about what life looks like in a year's time? Where you'd like to be, what you'd like to be doing?

Bal: There are a lot of things in my head that I'd like to do. So, I will keep hold of some of them till I know if it's gonna happen. But some downtime... but like you said, I think if I, when I retire, the first month will be amazing. But I think the novelty will wear off quickly, so I do need to make sure there are some fun things in there.

Kiron: Yeah.

Bal: And also, there's still gotta be a purpose isn't there? And I've, I think that's the other thing.

Kiron: I suppose a bit of balance as well.

Bal: Yeah, it is.

Kiron: I mean, we're obviously keen for you to go and enjoy the opportunity of retirement and like you said, doing the fun things.

But yeah, you're quite right. You still want something to go and achieve or something to go and do. Another little challenge.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: But yeah, I mean, by the sounds of it, I know what you're alluding to, and hopefully if all pans out, we'll get you back on in a year's time. Around then, and talk about life post plastics.

Bal: Yes.

Kiron: And maybe what you'll be going into next. We're gonna do a little segment-

Bal: oh gosh.

Kiron: Which, I haven't preempted you about, but it's pretty straightforward. It's called Made or Broken. I'm just gonna give you two phrases. It will come pretty self-explanatory as we go through.

Don't think about it too much. No explanation behind your answer. Just pick one. Basically, just pick one out of these two options, okay?

Bal: Right.

Kiron: Okay. Back yourself or seek reassurance?

Bal: Back myself.

Kiron: Specialise or stay broad?

Bal: Stay broad.

Kiron: Be liked or be respected?

Bal: Be respected.

Kiron: Speak up or stay quiet?

Bal: Speak up.

Kiron: Innovation or consistency?

Bal: Oh, innovation.

Kiron: Routine or variety?

Bal: Variety.

Kiron: Perfect. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to obviously have Mum, Bal Phillips, from Great Central Plastics to join us on the pod. You've been listening to the Made Podcast, sponsored by Engel. Look forward to bringing you the next episode very soon.

Thank you.