MADE EP.1 | Graeme Herlihy Journey to MD of ENGEL (UK)

Kiron: Welcome to the first official made episode. So today I'm joined by the only fitting guests that we could have to kick things off. A man that has served over 30 years in the industry with not very long left to go, but I'm joined by Graeme Herlihy. Hi. Welcome, Graeme. So yeah, you've had a huge tenure in our industry as we know, but we've, we just had a chat off air, but three official days I think left to go.

I'd like to rewind things back to where things started. I understand you did mechanical engineering, Portsmouth University which would've been in the eighties.

Graeme: It would, yeah.

Kiron: Where did that interest in engineering come from? Is it something you'd been interested as a young boy? What was the decision to embark on that kind of career?

Graeme: So I think I made the mistake that so many kids did in those days that I liked motorbikes and cars. I was always fiixing up cars and motorbikes and I thought, therefore I need to do engineering.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And then when I arrived at university, I found there was no spanners.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: But that's actually why I started.

Kiron: Okay. So just an interest in. Adrenaline toys basically.

Graeme: I was lucky because I was sponsored through university by a company. I did a so called undergraduate apprenticeship, but a company called Bendix. Which is air brakes for commercial vehicles.

Kiron: Are they still around now?

Graeme: Okay. They're part of I've forgotten the name now, but one of these, one of these big automotive groups. Yeah. Part of a big automotive group. Actually the factory. I'm from Bristol, as you probably can tell from my accent. My father worked there when it was Douglas Motorcycles.

Okay. Now you see the motorbike connection.

Kiron: Yeah. The link .

Graeme: And they became, eventually became Bendix and my dad got me a job. As an undergraduate apprentice and went through university and actually I did a couple of years postgraduate working for them before.

Kiron: Yeah. So before we get into that, have you got any siblings or what's your family situation?

Graeme: Yeah, brother and sister.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: So I'm the baby.

And I've got a brother who's 12 years older than me and a sister who's 16 years older than me.

Kiron: Okay. So growing up you were the age gap, I guess they'd left home and were getting on with their lives.

Graeme: Growing up, I had four parents.

Which is, that's not gonna be a good thing, is it?

Kiron: Yeah. So grew up relatively normal upbringing, went to university did your postgrad, and then you mentioned sneaking into the plastics industry.

Graeme: Yeah. It happened by mistake.

Kiron: It was usually does,

Graeme: it was a complete mistake.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: My first job in the industry actually was for Cincinnati Milacron.

Another injection motor machine supplier. In fact, I've worked for a three and I went for a job. I decided I should be a sales guy.

Kiron: yeah.

Graeme: And I thought I could do that. So I applied for a job with Cincinnati Milacron, who I knew because they make machine tools.

And actually I was at the interview and they said, so Mr. Herlihy here, why do you think you'd be good for this position?

And I said I've done an apprenticeship, I understand engineering and all about machine tools. So I could sell machine tools. And the guy said actually this is injection moulding machines. And I'm not, I don't really remember if I knew what an injection moulding machine was at that point, but I said, Hey, yeah, I could sell that.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And I, in fact, I was I was offered three jobs around that time. It was a very buoyant time in the industry.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: It was very buoyant time in the industry and a young presentable guy could get a job in sales quite easily. And I was offered three jobs, but the one with Cincinnati Milacron meant spending three months doing product training.

In Cincinnati, Ohio.

Kiron: Right.

Graeme: And that, as a 25-year-old, was very appealing. So

Kiron: yeah,

Graeme: that's the reason why I am in the plastics industry today.

Kiron: So you went to Ohio?

Graeme: I went to Ohio. Spent three months there. I learned nothing.

Kiron: Right.

Graeme: I spent most of the time in the bar.

Yeah. I thought that might be the answer. It was a fantastic time. I found that at Cincinnati, Cincinnati, the company would hire. Hire kids straight out of high school,

Kiron: right.

Graeme: And then they'd have an apprenticeship and they'd teach 'em about the product. It'd be a two year apprenticeship. They'd teach 'em about the product and then give them a sales territory in the US and off they'd go.

By coincidence, I landed in Cincinnati. Just as there is an intake of domestic salespeople.

Kiron: Right.

Graeme: So they became friends and we went out and partying and they had a very strict kind of apprenticeship to go through, but no one really cared what this strange English guy was doing. They put me wiring up some heat bands on modern machines, but I didn't really learn very much.

Kiron: So then. After your three months, which is obviously fun. Three months in Ohio.

Graeme: Yeah.

Kiron: That was good fun.

Graeme: And then what happened was they handed me the keys to a company car.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: They told me, which was my sales territory, and they said, go sell machines.

Kiron: So where was the sales territory?

Graeme: Southwest.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: And

Kiron: your area went as far as where?

Graeme: I had South Wales and the Southwest. So

Kiron: Between Bristol and London,

Graeme: Yeah. And Wales. To the west. And the southwest. Down to Cornwall.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And i'm sure you're gonna ask me how I see the differences in the industry today,

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: That would not work now.

Kiron: No?

Graeme: So just to be handed a company car and some brochures and be told to go sell, I've hired a lot of sales guys now, and I would never hire someone under,

Kiron: I assume it worked at the time, did it or not?

Graeme: Yeah.

Kiron: Ish.

Graeme: Ish.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: The industry was so much, less sophisticated.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Then, so my job was to bang on doors. I mean, you've gotta remember this a long time ago.

And so there was no mobile phones. There was no. CRM systems.

Kiron: To what point are we at here? Are we like mid nineties?

Graeme: No, this is 88.

This is when I first started. 1988. And my connection to the office was a pager. So every now and again you get, be beep. Beep. Oh. The office wants me.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And then I'd have to drive around and find a phone box.

You remember them??

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Or maybe you don't remember them.

And then find a phone box and then find out what the office wants me. But, it's so difficult now to imagine life without, especially life on the road, professional life without a mobile phone. But that's how it was. There was no email. Didn't have a laptop.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: So I found it much better in those days to cold call rather than try to make telephone appointments.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: So typically you'd have a day at home and make appointments, but I used to like just banging on the door.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And the plastics industry in terms of a number of companies, was so much bigger than it is now.

So I'd spend a day in Malvern or a day in Dorset or wherever and call around all the companies and I could get six to eight calls in. In a day.

Kiron: So it's just a, it is basically a numbers game, isn't it? At that point?

Graeme: Yeah. It's a, now it's different world. Now.

Kiron: so this is 88, and then how long did you stay at this company for?

Graeme: Only a couple of years.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: I mean, it was a tough grounding. I didn't really know who I was joining Cincinnati Milacron, who aren't around anymore. They, it's American injection model machine manufacturer. They were American machines. They on a European level, weren't very good.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And actually something I think not many people in the industry knows is Cincinnati for a while built machines in Northern Ireland.

Kiron: Right.

Graeme: So in the middle of the troubles in the seventies, there were big grants to establish manufacturing organisations. And Cincinnati started building machines in Northern Ireland.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: But we had a few customers, so I arrived. And I arrived into this world where I knew nothing about injection moulding. and all our existing customers hated us.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: And they hated us because Cincinnati had built the factory, tried to grow their market presence in Europe, and then it didn't work. So they left.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: When they left, there was no spare parts, no service. If you wanted a spare part, you had to phone the us. So I suddenly encountered a situation.

All our customers. Hated us. Maybe that's putting a bit strongly. Yeah. But at the same time, and this is maybe something a lot of people in the industry don't remember, or don't know, I was offering the first ever all electric injection moulding machine back then.

Kiron: Wow. Okay.

Graeme: It was the Cincinnati Milliron, ACT.

Kiron: Right

Graeme: Now, anyone listening to this probably doesn't recognise that name, but the story there is that the CEO of Cincinnati Milacron, so remember they make injection motor machines and machine tools.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: The machine tools had drive systems, control systems that were made by a company called FANUC.

Kiron: Oh, okay.

Graeme: The CEO, Harold Fake had this idea and he said to the supplier, Hey, why don't we build an injection moulding machine based on the technology, the drive technology that we use for machine tools?

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And the Japanese, oh, good idea?

Kiron: Oh, yeah.

Graeme: And so they built it.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: They built a prototype and it was decided that no one in the plastics industry has ever heard of FANUC.

So they did it as a joint venture and sold it as a Cincinnati Milacron.

Kiron: Right.

Graeme: So it was a Cincinnati Milacron, ACT

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: But

Kiron: wow, that's incredible.

Graeme: But I was selling a fairly.

Basic hydraulic injection moulding machine bay made in the US Yeah. And I was also selling this all electric injection moulding machine when it was a super innovative novel.

Kiron: Yeah. What was the buyin like for the all electric back then? Were people interested?

Graeme: This was actually the positive side. So I said before that most of our existing customers hated us. Yeah. But everyone wanted to learn a bit more about this very strange all electric thing. They mean not so many wanted to buy it.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: But they wanted to hear about it because it's very innovative technology.

And actually I was there two years and I know very well exactly how successful I was. I sold nine machines in two years.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: Which by today's standards, maybe not so much. But I they were all electric machines.

Kiron: Wa was there any competition for the All Electric?

Graeme: No, it was invented from an idea by Harold and built by FANUC.

Kiron: Wow. Okay. So after that, is that when you then joined Demag?

Graeme: Yeah.

Kiron: And sales director there?

Graeme: No.

Kiron: So how long were you there?

Graeme: I guess for the back, the last I was there 10 years, I think I was sales director probably for the last three or four.

Kiron: yeah.

Graeme: There was many supplies in all different industries who no longer had their captive market. And there was a company called Kuasy. I bet you've never heard of Kuasy.

No, I haven't. So Kuasy made it. It was like a Skoda, you can say. But the old Skoda, not the modern Skoda, the old Skoda, the kind of cheap and cheerful machine made in East Germany.

Yeah. And Kuasy, of course they no longer had their captive market when the wall came down

and demag built very good quality hydraulic. Toggle machines in those days and then, but it was expensive. For an 85 tonner and Demags business was really from 150 up.

For small machines. So dag thought they'd have a go. The small machine market starting off with a new range of ergo tech machines built in via in East Germany, the old Kuasy factory.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: So I became the ergo tech specialist.

Which was a lousy idea.

Kiron: Why is that?

Graeme: I've got absolute respect for the management in those days. A guy called Bob Jackson, a guy called Barry Taylor, sales director and managing director at Demag. Okay. And, but they did come up with this idea. They told all the salespeople, look what you need to do is you need to identify all the high potential small machine accounts in your territory.

And then give them to this new guy from Bristol.

Kiron: Right.

Graeme: So what would you do if you were that sales guy being asked to identify, I think it was 50, right? What are the 50 most high potential accounts that you've got for small machines? You're gonna give them away, right?

...yeah.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: So they gave me all the rubbish, right?

Yeah. And I did my best.

Kiron: Yeah,

Graeme: I got a few. Sold a few machines, not so many.

Kiron: so when you say the rubbish, is that because they were small accounts not looking to invest ?

Graeme: Or they were the low potential. Okay. Either they're small or the mindset was to buy used machines.

Yeah. Yeah. Or they knew for whatever reason that we couldn't penetrate them.

Kiron: Okay. Fine.

Graeme: And that's where I started.

And I remember I worked for a couple of years and I can't remember how many machines I'd sold. It wasn't huge. And my boss, Bob Jackson

Called me into his office and he said and he said, Graeme, we really need to review where things are going. And and I thought, oh, I'm gonna lose my job here.

Yeah, because we only sold, I don't remember the number, I only sold that many machines. So I, on a piece of graph paper, I drew out, I listed handwritten, I listed all the companies, my 200 companies that I'd been given.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And I had a, like it was a spreadsheet.

I drew vertical lines, and that's company name. There's what they've bought.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Those 200 companies, there's what they've bought, and there, here are the Demag machines that I've sold.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: and I guaranteed that I'd been systematically processing every one of these companies and knew exactly what they bought.

And I, again, I don't remember the numbers now, but I said, so my market share is 42% or whatever it was.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: I said, that's gotta be the best market share among all the sales guys in the company.

Kiron: What'd they say?

Graeme: And not there and then, but I got promoted.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: Yeah. And that was my, I became field sales manager in Northern area. So they decided to divide the company in two, and I became sales manager for the North, which was actually mostly agents. We had Hardie polymers in the north and a. Gentleman by the name of Pat White in Ireland. I was responsible for them and and one direct territory.

And that was my first step into management, let's say.

Kiron: Yeah. So how many people were you managing then? Sounds like a handful.

Graeme: One. I had one direct sales guy and two agents.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: And that was my first step. Yeah. I mean, I became sales manager after that field sales manager. And after that I became sales director.

Kiron: And I guess with that, the jump from being a sales or regional sales manager to sales directors quite large, is there stuff about that kind of directorship responsibility that surprised you or stuff that you thought, this isn't as difficult as I might think or, I didn't think that was gonna be part of the role.

Graeme: Title than anything really changed when I got my first directorship, but I was 30. And I was very proud

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: To have director written on my business card. Actually, I succeeded a chap that died. There was a chap by the name of Klauss Leyvald.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: So we had a sales director from the parent company in, he came from the parent company in Germany. He developed a brain tumor and it was tragic and I was very close with him actually. And then he died. And sadly, yeah I then became the, I then became the sales director.

Kiron: So is that someone that had been at the company throughout your whole experience there, or,

Graeme: No, he in Demag in those days, they used to like to have a German come through.

Okay. And in fact, all the very successful leadership in Demag at the time, To qualify, needed to have spent some time abroad. So there was always a German who wanted to to be in the company.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: It's how it worked at the time, but my, my, the original sales director was the guy that hired me.

I mentioned him before. Bob Jackson.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Super guy. I always feel I'm Bob Jackson, trained.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Yeah. From a long time ago. Also the managing director, Barry Taylor, who I mentioned, he's, he passed away just recently.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: Sadly. But yeah, there was Bob Jackson and then there was Klauss Leyvald.

And then it was me in my time.

Kiron: Okay. So you enter into the sales director role. Sounds like the way you're talking about Demag is positive.

Graeme: Yeah, super

Kiron: You learned loads.

Graeme: Demag is a great a great company.

Kiron: gonna ask you what, how did you come to leave that company?

What was the reason behind that?

Graeme: Demag was part of the management group, and management was a very proud German engineering company in a lot of different bits. And then they were destroyed by the British.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: What happened was this is the days of the mobile phone. Boom.

Kiron: Okay?

Graeme: Now Mannesmann was huge and maybe, 2% of Mannesmann was this D2 network and Vodafone, that's what the British connection, Vodafone wanted to take over the Mannesmann D2 network,

Kiron: right?

Graeme: So they bought the whole of Mannesmann just for this little bit,

Kiron: right?

Graeme: What then happened is the rest was sold off in, in private equity, and then that's when Demag went through their kind of private equity phase.

And then we were all busy creating reports instead of generating revenue. And that was a little bit negative. I was approached by, actually, I was approached by ENGEL and I thought, you know what? I don't wanna leave, but at least I get the opportunity to see a competitor.

So they invited me, they flew me across to Austria.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: And in those days, ENGEL wasn't big in the uk.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: It was a little bit niche.

Kiron: so what year? What year are we at here?

Graeme: That's 2002.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: Yeah, actually a bit early 2001.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: I joined ENGEL in 2002, but there was a year

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: In between knowing that I would and actually actually moving. Yeah. when I saw the factory, I was blown away.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Especially with big machines.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: I would say the big machine market from the Europeans has been ENGEL and KraussMaffei Demag were never big in big machines.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: But the market was very strong. Automotive industry was growing at that time. And when I saw the big machine factory called St. Valentine, it's mind blowing today.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: But that is, seeing the factory is what convinced me. I said, Hey, I've only come here really to get a sneaky look at the competitor, but I can't turn this down.

Kiron: So what role were they offering you?

Graeme: Managing director.

Kiron: Okay, fine.

Graeme: Yeah, actually Barry Taylor, the former managing director at Demag he retired and.

It was never clear. There was myself a guy who's also well known in industry called Nigel Flowers.

And he was technical director. Okay. I was sales director. Nigel was technical director and there was. German guy, another German guy called Florian Koenig, who was financial director. And they decided not to replace, not to make any of us md, but the three of us ran the business and we all got on really well.

It was a good atmosphere and that worked fine, believe it or not.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: So I actually went from sales director to managing director, but only when I moved.

Kiron: So you must have been I still pretty young at this point though.

Graeme: 38.

Kiron: Okay. So you're still in your thirties get offered managing director at Engel.

Graeme: Yeah.

Kiron: Being out to the factory, so could see what they were all about. Yeah. And the potential there. Obviously you mentioned that there wasn't the reputation of Engel wasn't as big as it is now in the uk, so I Sounds like you probably thought there's an opportunity there to do something with that.

And then yeah. Away you went.

Graeme: I've had so much luck. I mean, I've had a super career and there's been a lot of luck involved, and I joined ENGEL at just the right time. It's, it was going through a bit of a, let's call it a slow patch. ENGEL had actually a weak reputation for service.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: That I would play on. Of course, when I was at Demag and it was. I remember I joined the company and I, now I got a business card with managing director. Yeah. I mean, it's got my name on it.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And managing director underneath that was like,

Kiron: yeah,

Graeme: So I was quite nervous, but I found out it was really easy to fix.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: I mean, it's not rocket science.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: You need to cut cost a bit. 'cause we weren't making money.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: You need more revenue.

To get more revenue, to get the trust from the customers that they'd invest in.

You need better service. So I spent a lot of efforts trying to improve service. And we did.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And I, I'm not sure how many years it took, but not so many years until we'd become market leaders in uk

Kiron: My experience and people that have mentioned you in during your tenure is that you are very relationship focused.

And that seemed like a big thing that stood out to me is that you wanted your clients or potential client to have a really positive experience with Engel, whether that be an event, whether that be a social experience, whether that be because they purchased a machine. Yeah. But if they can look back on Engel and said, oh, I had a really great time with my experience with Engel, that would stick with them.

Yeah. And then, that's how things last and you get repeat clients, I guess is keeps up.

Graeme: A very good friend of mine in the industry guy by the name of Darren Parsons from a company called Agentdraw. He once said to me, he said, the reason they switched to ENGEL wasn't because anything to do with the machines. It's because the mindset of ENGEL UK was to try and help their business. And as a byproduct of. Of that they would invest.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And I'm not saying I, I especially helped Agentdraw in any particular way, but it's just, I remember him saying that to me.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And I think that was the mindset that we tried to maintain in the business.

Kiron: I think that's still true to this day. I mean, it's no secret that we are obviously working with you guys at ENGEL now, and we did approach other manufacturers to see what different companies could offer.

From a machine point of view, especially when you're a small company, there isn't. A lot in it, being honest, but like price points, technology, whatever. And it's trying to find where is the difference and it's the people side of it. Yeah. For us that stood out. I've built a great relationship with Wayne already and the rest of the team, so I totally get that because for us as a moulder and what we believe sets us apart to our clients is the relationship building and the service.

And that has obviously the same effect all the way down the supply chain. We all benefit.

Graeme: Yeah.

Kiron: Some of the angle experiences are pretty legendary from what I've heard. I've heard stories of. ENGEL Jets. I've heard a story involving snorting snaps. Oh, is that ring any bells? Graeme?

Graeme: It couldn't possibly be true.

Couldn't possibly comment. No comment.

Kiron: That a good friend of yours, I had a call with John Steppen.

Graeme: Oh yeah.

Kiron: So is there something about the experiences that you thought that you could offer? People who were coming on trips or whatever, that you could set you apart from everybody else.

Graeme: Yeah. I did do quite a lot of let's call it social events in my time, but it's hard to really say that was marketing,

Because. Again, I consider myself very fortunate in my career. You meet such nice people and they become your friends They're really strong friends of mine privately. Yeah. Yeah. So you meet these great people in the industry and if you have the opportunity to organise a ski trip or a motorbike trip was a big.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Then you're not so much entertaining clients as having fun with your mates.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And so much, I feel so fortunate that so much of my career was about having fun with your mates. Yeah. Yeah. And of course when you're there, your mates, they're probably more likely to buy your moulding machine.

I think that's changing a little bit or has changed a bit in the industry. Compliance is a much bigger topic than it used to be.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: So there would be some a lot of frowning going on if if someone organised a ski trip for customers these days.

Kiron: so did you get much pushback because obviously when you got offered the role of MD with probably the responsibility to grow the UK market? Yeah. And you've got this idea. I dunno at what point, but you say, I wanna book this trip and I wanna take guys out to whatever event.

Graeme: Yeah.

Kiron: Was there much kickback from Austria or were they happy to say?

Graeme: what they dont know can't hurt them?

Kiron: Yeah.

Seek forgiveness, not permission?

Graeme: You don't even have to seek forgiveness because this is also something that's changed.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: I don't think Engel's very different.

When I joined Engel, they handed me the keys to the building, said, go off and do it.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And it was really like my business. Like the UK subsidiary was like my business that was positive but also negative, if you compare the situation now,

Kiron: yeah.

Graeme: Now you are. So much more integrated into the parent company's strategies and what how they would, what they would like you to do. And as I moved into an international position, which we'll come back to. So I was part of the, poacher turned

Gamekeeper maybe. Yeah. But there's so in, in those days it was just get on with it.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Yeah. So no one was looking over my shoulder. saying that's not good use of money. There was no one there to say that.

Kiron: Yeah. And clearly the results obviously proved that it worked because I think where you started with the story saying ENGEL didn't have much of a reputation.

But now huge reputation.

Graeme: Yeah.

Kiron: Yeah. Which is amazing that. The, that you've mentioned that you are, obviously leaving the company in whatever, it's three working days.

But the kind of legacy that you've left behind and the foundations you've built have given the next generation such a great opportunity to continue to build that forward.

Graeme: Wayne is obviously the next generation. In UK terms, Wayne's the next generation and I had it so much easier than him.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: This is what I said. So I became managing director in 2002.

With a pretty low turnover.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: Yeah. And then I. Steered the ship during a period.

And it's not that I not, I think I did okay, but it's not only that I did a fantastic job. The market grew and grew.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And we were I was steering the ship at a time when we were building market share in a growing market.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: It's not like that now.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: So actually I stepped out of ENGEL UK in 2018.

So you think about that time period, 2002 to 2018. I mean, the industry has its ups and downs, but that was a great period.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: And then from 2018, it all got a bit more difficult. There's another managing director, Nigel Baker.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: If you know that name.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Nigel's still around in the industry today.

Kiron: okay.

Graeme: Pop popped up again. But, 2018 was really the boom the industry stopped growing. If you think of the period, it's 2012 to 2018, automotive industry especially was investing like hell,

Kiron: right?

Graeme: And. In 2018, they, a whole bunch of things went wrong. The industry figured out they'd overinvested in a spare capacity. We had semiconductor shortages. We had a war. We had a pandemic. Now those things are obviously all Nigel's fault.

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Because it didn't happen on my watch.

Kiron: Yeah. Nothing to do with you.

Graeme: But if you look at a graph of turnover

Kiron: Yeah.

Graeme: Then you can see is all, it's not looking very good. 2002, now it's picking up. 2018. Always going back down again.

Kiron: So the stats.

Graeme: the stats. But I can't really yeah. They can't really take that.

Kiron: I mean, believe it or not, we are fast getting through the time slot that we've got. So I'm gonna have to get you back by the sounds because we have not even touched on the presidential role. But before we do wrap this up, there are two things I wanted to ask you about.

Firstly, if you could go back to, let's say, 30 years ago and speak to a young Graeme, is there anything that you would tell him knowing what you know now,

Graeme: I find it, I'm sure I've made plenty of mistakes. But what would I do differently?

I'm not really sure.

Kiron: Okay.

Graeme: when I was a young sales guy on the road, I was so keen for success. I didn't really have the tools to be so successful at the beginning. Because I didn't have the experience, didn't have the product knowledge, even the industry knowledge. But I did a lot of calls.

I really did a lot of calls, I worked hard, and I think if you work hard and then you en enjoy what you do and you get to know people. Yeah. And it is a community. It's not just an industry, it's a community. And when you get to know people you build on that, don't you? And so I only look back positively.

Kiron: probably just enjoy it.

Graeme: Yeah, enjoy

Kiron: I mean, that ties in perfectly to a little segment that I'd like to do. I'm gonna give you two cues, I guess. And I'd like you to just answer, it'll become clear when I go through it, just straight off the cuff what you think.

No reasoning, no stories behind it. Just pick one. Okay? Okay. Yeah. So back yourself or seek reassurance.

Graeme: Back yourself.

Kiron: Specialise or stay broad.

Graeme: Specialise.

Kiron: Be liked or be respected.

Graeme: Be liked,

Kiron: speak up or stay quiet.

Graeme: Speak up.

Kiron: Innovation or consistency?

Graeme: Innovation.

Kiron: Routine or variety?

Graeme: Variety. They're getting easier.

Kiron: That's been our first episode with Graeme. Thank you very much for joining us.

Graeme: Pleasure.

Kiron: Also obviously thank you to our sponsors ENGEL for backing up this podcast and we look forward to seeing you in the next episode.